Being a newbie in public!

[Rolo]

Hi guys - I'm a newbie to painting, and have recently begun painting small projects with an eye towards possibly painting my '08 Road Glide next year. I have some specific questions about a mailbox project I am working on. I'll add all the details of what equipment, products and methods I'm using and then ask my questions. I figure I'll just publicly expose all my shortcomings as a newbie painter and hopefully some other newbie somewhere can learn from my mistakes and the help I get from you more experienced old dogs.

First off the equipment and paint products I'm using for this project:

DeVilbiss Tekna quick-clean HVLP gun (1.3 tip)
3 HP/60 gal compressor
3M blue vinyl 1/8" tape for flame layout
**FBS #48405 1/16" ProBand fine line tape
Montana Sys 50 Silver Metallic base
Montana TH036 reducer
HOK SG100 Intercoat clear
HOK/ALSA Kandy
Montana CRV21 clear w/CRV21 activator

Now on the project(s):

I sent some mailboxes to a guy who was supposed to paint some custom flames on them for me. He took too long and kept putting me off, so I picked up the boxes and decided I'd do them myself. This then infected me with the idea that at some point I would be confident enough to paint my Road Glide. Sounds crazy, but I like to take on big things Ive never done before, so we'll see how that goes! So - mailboxes is what it is today, and one box in particular for this question:

My plan for the box was this: Paint the base silver metallic. Tape off the flames and paint the rest of the box with a dark blue kandy from HOK (Kobalt blue which I darkened with a few drops of Montana Mercedes Black). Unmask the flames (which would now be silver metallic, and use some orange kandy (the Alsa liquid concentrate) to make the flames fade in from a dark orange to lighter, and to highlight the tips etc.

So far, I took the box as it was and removed the lid (it's a house-mount style). I sanded it down with 600 wet. From my research this was to help me give the new paint something to bite onto.

Next, I cleaned it up, tacked it, taped off the parts not to be painted and dropped a couple coats of the silver metallic base onto it. The first two coats were very thin and I was getting nervous that perhaps my prep work wasn't up to par, but it turns out that my spraying technique was off, and I was starving the gun of paint for fear of runs. I got the flow, pressure and pattern sorted and the next two coats went on nice and looked great. I dropped a couple coats of SG100 over that, since I read that was a good idea to protect the base while taping off flames.

Now comes the first of my problems, and I'm sure there's a great, easy answer that my brain and endless hours of youtube videos and websearching haven't made clear as yet. I taped off my flames, then I realized that if I painted the flames on first (with the orange kandy), then I'd have to remove the tape and somehow tape off my flames PERFECTLY so that the blue kandy intended for the remainder of the box wouldn't bleed onto my flames. And if I painted the blue part of the box first, then I would have to get the ends of my taped off flame tips perfect, and even then, I'd have the lines from the tape to deal with after painting them in. SOOOO the solution I thought of was to simply paint the whole box the blue kandy over the silver metallic, and then tape off my flames, scuff inside the tape with a scotch brite, then run more silver metallic over it, then my orange kandy, then I'd have the look I was after. Even then, I was concerned that scuffing the SG100 carrying the blue kandy wouldn't be sufficient to make the silver metallic look as silver as it should. I'm sure there's a better way, and if there is, I would be happy to hear it!

Ok so, the first problem led me to the second. The flames were taped off over the SG100 that went over the base. I did not scuff the SG100 before I taped. In retrospect, after re-reading the SG100 tech sheet, I should have, since the SG100 needs it if it has been dry for longer than 12 hours before clear. However, I don't think this missed step caused what happened next:

I pulled the FBS orange 1/16" fine line tape off the box, and noticed that there was a distinct residue in the shape of my flames left on the SG100 by the tape. I thought it was no big deal, considering that I would need to wet sand before applying the kandy anyway, and that would get rid of the residue. Well, much to my surprise, I got to wet sanding with 800, and it wasn't coming off. I wet sanded until I was on the verge of sanding through the SG100 coats. The outlines of my flames are still there, all the way down into the base coat. At this point I'm not sure what direction to take. With this tape damage, will I need to sand this down to the original scuffed finished and start again? The box is super smooth after my wet sanding, but still the marks remain.

The tape in question:



The box with impressions of tape shown (you can see I've gotten into the base coat in a couple of spots trying to remove the tape marks - and in those spots, the marks are still in the base!):



So the questions are:

Is that tape crap, or did I get a bum roll? I've used the blue 3M 1/8" on another box with no trouble or marks. I only used this stuff because it was thinner and on a small box, I figured I would need to make tighter turns with the tape.

Am I in a position now of having to reapply my base, or just the SG100? The spots where I got to the base look fine on the box, I think JUST barely got through the SG100. I'm afraid that with the tape marks as they are, I'm going to have no choice but to keep sanding until they are gone, and start over with the silver. If anyone has a suggestion on a better way to proceed, I'd be very happy to hear it.

 

[tomsteve]

welp, i dont have advise on the tape product you are using, and im not a pro, but i do some work like you are talking about. first off, sanding metallics is not a good idea. the tech sheets for the products being used should have information on amount of dry time before taping and shooting the next coats. i was getting ridges along tape lines when i first started and got pretty frustrated. first thing i learned was to use just enough paint to get good coverage. no matter what, i still get ridges, but maybe some day after a lot of practice i wont. i bury the ridges in the clearcoat. apply 3 good coats of clear, wet sand, being careful not to break through the clear, and add 3 more coats. wet sand again and iffen the ridges are buried, one more good coat of clear.

as for the residue from the tape, i have used wax and grease remover AFTER the paint has been alowed to dry, but still in the recoat window to get the residue off.


the tekna is a pretty darn good gun. i have the copper tekna and am falling in love with it.

 

[Rolo]

Heya Tom - thanks a lot for the reply!

The issue I'm having with the tape is an odd one, at least to a novice like myself. It's not ridges, or even residue really, as far as I can tell. It's almost as if the tape goo literally stained the SG100 and all the way down to the base coat. I've got it as smooth as a baby's butt and I can't feel a darn thing, no texture, ridges, nothing.

I'm checking the tech sheet on the metallic now to look into the issues with sanding. If it turns out I can't sand it safely, then perhaps the best option is to simply sand it enough to remove the SG100 and recoat with new metallic, and start over. It's not that it would be a huge job to do so really, but I'm very interested in learning if this was a mistake I made with the materials involved, or if that tape is crap. Either way, I'm never using that tape again, since the 3M stuff has never (in my admittedly limited experience) had anything less than favorable results for me.

 

[tomsteve]

the thing with sanding metallics is that ya can sand on the metallic and lose the reflective effect of the metallic. did you allow enough flash time before taping?

 

[Rolo]

Yes sir! The SG100 tech sheet says to wait 1 hour before taping, I finished that coat before bed time, so I taped the following day, probably 12 hours later. The Montana base paint before the SG100 was allowed to dry longer (tech sheet says 10-15 between coats, at least 20 before clear) as well. I am noticing that it says 20-30 minutes before applying clear. I applied my SG100 the day after the base coats went on, so it looks like I am letting all of my materials dry longer than is necessary or recommended, but wouldn't doing it too soon be more likely to cause problems than much later, or is it just as bad?

Oh - and I think sanding down to the metallic will be necessary to remove the marks, but I can spray new base metallic over it as long as it is scuffed up nicely, correct? I'm assuming that I won't face the same problems with the 3M tape as this other stuff (which will be safely secured in the trash can!).

 

[tomsteve]

yup, sand with 500-600 and reshoot. i myself have tried many different tapes and stick with 3m.http://www.tcpglobal.com/3m/3m400-3.aspx

 

[TAZ]

You sure picked a harder job to do for one of your first jobs. Candy on candy, yeeeowww.

I haven't used the Montana line, so I can't really help you there. BUT, as far as the steps, I would suggest just resanding the complete box, then spraying the complete box silver metallic, spraying the candy blue, then clearcoat it (use topcoat, not SG-100). Then resand the clear (800 or so would be fine). Then mask off your flames, paint them silver, then spray the flames only in the candy orange. One thing you have to watch out here since you are doing a tri-stage flame job like this is getting the edge too thick. If all goes good, then you can remove the mask after it sits for a little bit. Then clearcoat the complete box. Most likely you will need to resand once again until you can't feel any edges on the flames. Then reclear again.
Then you can wetsand and buff if you wish.

You could do the flames lighter on the tips if you want, but it's best just to paint them all the orange. Then come back and individually mask off each tip, and spray them another color like a bright yellow, red, silver.... You would want to do this step before the last clearing. No need to worry about an edge building because this should be very thin when you spray it ion (really should just airbrush the tips though).
Lot's of steps in order to do this right, but with tri-stage paints, one problem could lead to another.

Using HOK UK or KK would be fine for both colors.

If you did this basecoat/clearcoat, you could do just a nice blue base, mask off the flames, paint them a nice orange pearl and clearcoat, then you are done. As long as the edge doesn't get too thick on you when you do the orange.

By the way, I think it's just buildup that you had which is causing the problems with the tape residue.

 

[Rolo]

Oh interesting! I hadn't thought of just doing an orange pearl over the blue box... that sounds like it would be a lot more user friendly for me and my greenness! This will be the first time using a pearl if I decide to do it that way (and it sounds pretty appealing after the problems I've had with it), will the orange show up nicely over the blue kandy? I was worried that it might be so dark as to be barely noticeable.

And, since you mentioned the pearl for this, I will reveal my other project and ask for your tips on that as well. While I was working with this box, I silvered up two other regular sized boxes as experimental pieces. One I intend to try ghost flames, using the pearl only over the flames, then the kandy over the whole thing. I bought some HOK DP23 Egyptian Gold dry pearl to lay down on the flames, then the Oriental Blue KK liquid to mix into the SG100 and go over the flames and base. I have no idea at all how the Gold will look under the blue, but we'll find out! I have seen lots of recommendations from people to do test panels before laying down the final project, and I will definitely do this. I've read that when laying the pearl out on the flames that you should use several very light coats rather than fewer wetter coats. I'd love to learn some more advanced ghost flame techniques, and I figured doing something like this would be a good start.

The reason I'm so interested in the ghost flames is because eventually when I do my bike, that's what I'm hoping to do. I'll probably do some ghost flames on several small projects between now and then so I can get really comfortable with the layouts and working with the right materials. If I screw up a mailbox, no problem! I want to have a much higher chance of success when I do my bike

The other I was thinking of doing in a Dodger themed color scheme by making the base the same silver metallic I am using for the box at the start of this thread. Then Oriental Blue kandy over the metallic. In this case I was going to tape off my flames and mask them so that they stay silver, then come back after the kandy dries and do some touch-ups on the flames to make them look a little more lively. However, this presents the same problem I was having with the original box, and is making me think twice about that method. I may use the pearl there too! Is the method you described for coming back with the silver metallic something that is done when attempting to achieve that result, or is that a work around you offered because of how I butchered it in the first place? Is there a better technique for getting what I was after than that?

Oh and - when you say "buildup" are you meaning that I had my paint on too thick, and that made it sensitive to the adhesive in the tape? I thought the SG100 was supposed to be there as a barrier between my tape for graphics and the base coat, but the marks the tape left seemed to have bled all the way down into the base coat. I'm confused about how and why that happened, but honestly I'm also not too worried about it since I will be using the 3M from now on. I did one other box before all this, and did the exact same method (base, SG100, tape, flames with SG100 candy, SG100 over the top again) I used for the problem box, but had no issues with residue at all from the 3M stuff. If in fact it's something I did, that would be awesome knowledge to have!

 

[Rolo]

I just found the how-to section and am reading your old writeup on flames. Ghost ones no less! Perfect!

 

[TAZ]

If you use a color like HOK Tangelo, it will show up really nice over the blue. You may want to dust a very light coat of light gray first over the flames/candy blue. This will make it so it takes less orange to cover the blue, thus keeping the edge down.

As far as the ghost flames over the silver. Normally we would make up another color metallic for the flames. If you want them subtle, you could just use a gold metallic. Once you candy over everything, the base will be a brighter blue and the flames will be a little darker. You could add some black to the gold to give it a darker blue look.

I would recommend clearcoating first before you do any tips. If you accidentally got overspray on the blue when you are spraying the tips, you could have a problem. PLUS this would help eliminate that nasty edge on the flames before doing the tips. You'll have a nice flat surface to do the tips on. Then clearcoat and you are done.
Of course, after you clearcoat, you'll need to sand it flat before doing the tips.

Yea, I'm not positive on the SG100, tape problem. I'd have to see in person.

Glad you like the How-To section

 

[Rolo]

Hi Taz! I went to the paint shop today and picked up some light gray, red, and the Tangelo. Holy hell the Tangelo is expensive! I'll be putting it on tomorrow - respraying the box with the metallic right now and the blue kandy in SG100 right afterwards. I'll lay out the flames tonight, then shoot the light coat of light grey followed by the Tangelo tomorrow. How soon should I pull the flame tape after spraying the Tangelo? I can actually go ahead and clear it not long after the last of the Tangelo goes on, can't I?

 

[Rolo]

I think I may have darkened my blue kandy a bit too much on this and killed the metallic look underneath. The picture was taken right after spraying, so maybe once it dries it will improve. If not, the box is a nice solid blue!

 

[Rolo]

I've decided I'm taking this back down to the original finish and starting over. Between the darkness of the kandy, the unevenness of the finish, and a few dusty particles in the base, I'm just not satisfied with it. I'm building a better spray environment in my garage to keep out dust and such tomorrow, and I will have to refine my spray technique to get a better finish. Good practice I guess!

 

[TAZ]

Good luck to you.
If all else fails you can just use the UK candy. This is already premixed and in my opinion easier to paint since you can see what the finish will look like while you are spraying.

 

[Rolo]

Ok! I need some serious help. I've been having some major problems and I'm not exactly sure what I've done wrong to get these results. I'll explain in detail what I have done and the results I got, and see if perhaps there is an obvious flaw in my technique or procedures.

Since my last post, I sanded down the box as I said I was going to. I started with 80 grit using my DA sander, and when I got the majority of the old paint off and down to the original finish, I used some 220, then block sanded with 320. Once I had it cleaned and tacked off, I laid down the Montana System 50 silver metallic base coat. The data sheet ( http://www.montprod.com/PIS/1014_System50.pdf ) says to let each coat flash 15-20 minutes before the next. I put on one dry coat followed by two medium coats, allowing the time elapsed suggested. It also says to allow 40-60 minutes prior to taping for a second color if two-toning. I wasn't taping, but I was applying a second color, so I waited an hour before I began applying the HOK SG100 (reduced 1:1 with the Montana TH036 reducer, same reducer I'm using for base coat and clear) mixed with KK05 Cobalt Blue Kandy Koncentrate. Again I put a slightly lighter coat on first, followed by two medium/wet coats.

The SG100 tech sheet says that if it has dried more than 12 hours to slightly scuff with 400 - 500 paper to ensure top coats stick. I did that, then taped off my flames with the blue 3M fine line tape and used TransferRite Ultra 592U ( http://www.abitape.com/pdf/dtsht/592U Laser Masking.pdf ) to mask off the remainder of the box, using a razor blade to cut along the 3M fine tape and unmask the flamed area. Reading the tech sheet now on this paper, it appears that it is intended for ""textured substrates" like wood and plastic. At first glance, this makes the tape a possible suspect, but I used it on other boxes with no problems at all. However, the tape was used over the existing, scuffed up factory finish on the other boxes, not fresh paint that I had applied. Once you see the pictures, perhaps this will give some clues.

Once all that was finished, I left it taped overnight, then the next afternoon I sprayed a very light coat of a light grey paint in the Montana System 50 base coat line. Once that flashed I put on my HOK Tangelo. I got my airbrush out and touched up the tips and valleys very lightly with a red (also System 50). About 15 to 20 minutes later, I pulled the box out of the booth and began removing the tape. This is where the nightmare occurred. As I pulled the tape and masking up, I noticed that the SG100 with the Kandy in it was coming up with it too. It was literally just sliding right off the metallic silver base coat.

As you can see, even though the 3M tape was peeled away from the flames, there was still massive residue/imprint in the SG100/Kandy. In this picture, it looks like the tape is still there, but it's actually been pulled away already, that's how bad the imprints are. Once I realized that it was ruined, I took my latex gloved thumb and ran it with medium/hard pressure across the blue painted surface and not only did the SG100 come off, but some of the metallic did as well, revealing some of the remaining white from the original finish. It's as if none of my paint stuck the way it was supposed to. The base didn't stick to the box, the SG100 didn't stick to the base, the Tangelo didn't stick to the SG100 (though this could simply be because it was freshly sprayed only 30 minutes or so previous). The only thing that seemed to stick was the tape residue to my SG100!

Not only did the 3M stuff leave massive tape marks, but so did the masking paper I used to tape off the blue areas. It's hard to tell from the picture, but the blue areas have tracks of residue left from the tack paper. Again, both of these pictures are with the 3M tape removed already.

So far the only thing I can find that looks off to me is the reducer. Looking at the Montana tech sheet for the System 50, it recommends a different reducer (TH07100) than I am using (TH036). The TH036 is a zero VOC reducer and since I'm in California, I'm assuming that's why my paint shop sold me that. I honestly don't know the first thing about reducers, so I'm assuming he sold me what was required to be used with the System 50 base coat here in CA. I can't even find a tech sheet for the TH036 on Montana's website ( http://www.montprod.com/bigsky.htm#solvents ). I see a TH035 low VOC reducer, but not the 036. Maybe the 036 is just a newer version of the 035 and they haven't updated their site - I'm not sure.

So - hopefully this is enough information for you guys to perhaps give me a hand. Help!!

 

[TAZ]

A couple of things jump out after reading your post. One is that you are really rolling the dice when you are mixing different brands of paint and reducers. HOK reducer is quite aggressive. I've never used the Montana system, but I would be that this is not a very aggressive reducer. Meaning it didn't bite into the base.
Another thing is I'm not for sure why you 'cut' the edge of the tape for the flames. When you use fineline, you just need to pull it off and it should leave a clean edge or unless the paint is put on too thick.
Once you cut through those layers, and you have a reducer that doesn't bite, it might have pulled up on you. I see in your pics, that some areas started pulling up at the edge which is where the cuts along with flames were.

You should be able to pull the fineline up a few minutes after you are done spraying .

Another thing you mentioned is you sanded the SG1100/KK05 mix the next day. I wouldn't suggest this as you may make uneven spots in the candy (lighter and darker)

I would still suggest what I mentioned in my previous post. Spray the silver, spray the candy, then clearcoat (use top coat clear, not SG-100).
This way, the candy base is protected.
Once cleared, you can sand the next day, THEN you can do your flames and outline. Any mishaps with the flames can be easily taken care of since the base is clearcoated over.
I would also suggest using the HOK Reducer (not the Montana). Probably either RU-310 or RU-311

Also, it looks like you are using 1/4". Switch to 1/8" so it will not "pull" on you as bad in the oval portions of the flames.

 

[Rolo]

Hi Taz! Thanks again for all the help.

I've since taken the box into my paint shop and asked some questions there as well. I figured having someone see it in person would be helpful. This is what I came up with there:

One thing I didn't mention in my previous posts because I didn't know it was relevant is that the box was textured, sort of like a "hammered" finish, with a finer pattern of high and low spots. When I prepped the box, I did so using the 320 paper. The thought didn't occur to me, but my guy at the shop said that since I sanded the box with the soft block, that there was no way I got the "low spots" in the hammered finish properly scuffed. So in effect, I was spraying half of the finish over a smooth, unprepped factory finish. His suggestion was that I should have used a scuff pad over it so I could be sure I was getting down into those spots. That makes sense to me, but it only explained to me why the base didn't stick as well as it should have.

The second issue he came up with was that he said I was spraying way too much material onto the box, especially the SG100/Kandy mix. It's entirely possible this is true since the color was very light when I sprayed it at first, so I went back and added a bit more concentrate to the SG100 and sprayed over the original coat to darken up the color to where I wanted it. I'm still not sure about the tape residue, but I think the thickness of the SG100 prevented it from curing as well as it should've, and as a result was possibly too soft and perhaps vulnerable. That's a guess based on what my guy at the shop said.

One other thing he said, and I wanted to get your input on, is that when I sanded down the first failed finish I was basically stripping down a fresh, uncured finish. This means that I was expecting the new paint to mix and match with the partially cured paint, and that's not usually something that works out well. I'm guessing he mentioned that because it goes back to my original problems, with the low spots in the metal. Uncured paint was still lurking in those low spots and causing problems.

As for your suggestions:

I have done a lot of reading and everyone says what you have said, that mixing brands of paint products is a bad idea. I won't be doing that anymore. I'll get some of the HOK stuff and stick to their line for the entire project.

As for cutting the tape, I probably mislead you with my the wording in my original post. When I said I cut along the tape, what I meant was that I laid out the flames, then covered over them with the low tack transfer paper to tape off the blue areas. I then used the razor blade to very lightly cut along the center of the blue tape so I could remove the overlapping transfer paper that was covering areas that were being painted within the flames. I did it very lightly so as to avoid cutting through the blue tape, but enough to cut the paper and peel it away.

I can see now (and it makes a lot of sense) that putting the clear over the candy PRIOR to doing any flame work was the best idea. Then the tape and masking would be going over the much more durable clear coat rather than the more sensitive (and candy-containing) SG100.

So, combining your suggestions with the ones I got from my guy should lead me to a much more successful project. I'm probably using materials which are too expensive to be learning on. My idea though, is that since my goal is to use high quality products to paint my motorcycle eventually, that it makes sense to get mileage using those products, so I'm more familiar with them and the way they work when the time comes.

I'll post more updates when I have something I can be unashamed of!

 

[TAZ]

Lol, I like your last line, but hey, everyone makes mistakes. That was quite a project you have going there.

As far as the sanding of the textured surface. I to have sanded textured surfaces and didn't have a problem.
But yes, you should use a scotch bright (red) to sand. This will help.
Still think it was the Montana reducer more than sanding though.

Also, I still think it's a good idea to try the KU05 reducer. It's pre-mixed, so no fuss.
You DO have to also add KU100 though which brings up the material cost.
SHould take about 4 coats until you get a nice rich blue. Then clearcoat. If you go with the UK, DO NOT let it sit long before clearing as I've learned this will wrinkle. Normally what we do is spray the KU candy, spray a medium coat of UC-35 clear. Then you can let it sit for about 5 minutes or so since the topcoat is now clear and not the candy.

Good luck to you!