Confused- Mini Gun, Full Size Gun, Turbine?

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plazaman

New member
Hi, everyone, im new here, great forum. Ive been doing alot of reading here but still cant make up my mind.

Not much auto paint experience, but do with with latex & airless painting.


We recently had a custom bath vanity sprayed and finished with automotive products, PPG Concecpt. Love the finish.

I intend to repeat the same process for our custom kitchen. This time, we'll be doing to spraying, or atleast to attempt to lol.


Its killing me right now, i cant seem to figure out what system to go with. I must mention that we are only spraying door faces, and cabinet faces. Insides are getting stained & finish. Cabinet are birch made.


Objective : Achieve a great finish, little to no orange peel, ...
Plan to spray: PPG Concept or equivalent (Concept is alot of $$) primer, base, and clear.

Considering the following:

1) Purchase a turbine system, thinking about 4-5 stage with an accuspray 10G gravity gun
2) I have a portercable compressor that puts out 6.0 @ 40, along with 2 other pancakes compressors. Can i possibly run a decent gun off of these?
3) Buy a larger compressor, maybe in the 400 range, but i have no other use for it. I dont repairs cars or fill tires lol. Plus it requires a 220v and very big. Compressor im looking at does about 13.3@40


Dont mind spending a few bucks extra for a decent gun.

Im not a shop, nor do i plan on taking on outside or other work. Strictly for this project alone.

Thanks
Rich
 
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flamepain

New member
if this is a one time thing your best bet would probably be your local rent all.they generally keep there stuff in good repair and you will save a truck load of money.cyas
 
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plazaman

New member
im not sure about renting, we plan to spray on our free time, not much. so it could possibily be a few months before we are finished. This is very confusing!
 
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JohnPSW

New member
I'm not familiar with a turbine, so I can't comment on that. If you're doing one door at a time, you can get away with a smaller compressor than you'd need to do a whole car. You can run a full sized gun off a 25 gallon compressor, for a short period (such as doing a cabinet door). Even better, would be a 25 gallon compressor and a mini-gun - just be aware the color you spray from a mini-gun might be somewhat different than if it were sprayed from a full sized gun (especially if there are metallics in the paint).

A mini-gun will also save you some money over a full sized gun. I'd rather use a hgher line mini-gun over a cheaper full sized gun at the same price. (Did that make sense? .... If I had $300 to spend on a gun for this project, I'd rather spend it all on a mini-gun than on a $300 full sized gun)


I bought a 25 gallon compressor at Pep Boys for some stupid low price (like $130 or something).

You would certainly want to practice on some scraps before actually doing your doors. Nothing worse than having to get the paint all back off to do it over.


Going with a cheaper line of paint would not be detrimental in this project. You can get the same look and appearance. Some of the cost in the higher lines of automotive paint is in the color match research that goes into it (which you don't need on this project), some is for the added durability, ship resistance and UV protection (which you don't need unless you plane to take your cabinets for a ride down the interstate). The lower priced lines will offer sufficient protection in those areas.
 
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plazaman

New member
JohnPSW said:
I'm not familiar with a turbine, so I can't comment on that. If you're doing one door at a time, you can get away with a smaller compressor than you'd need to do a whole car. You can run a full sized gun off a 25 gallon compressor, for a short period (such as doing a cabinet door). Even better, would be a 25 gallon compressor and a mini-gun - just be aware the color you spray from a mini-gun might be somewhat different than if it were sprayed from a full sized gun (especially if there are metallics in the paint).

A mini-gun will also save you some money over a full sized gun. I'd rather use a hgher line mini-gun over a cheaper full sized gun at the same price. (Did that make sense? .... If I had $300 to spend on a gun for this project, I'd rather spend it all on a mini-gun than on a $300 full sized gun)


I bought a 25 gallon compressor at Pep Boys for some stupid low price (like $130 or something).

You would certainly want to practice on some scraps before actually doing your doors. Nothing worse than having to get the paint all back off to do it over.


Going with a cheaper line of paint would not be detrimental in this project. You can get the same look and appearance. Some of the cost in the higher lines of automotive paint is in the color match research that goes into it (which you don't need on this project), some is for the added durability, ship resistance and UV protection (which you don't need unless you plane to take your cabinets for a ride down the interstate). The lower priced lines will offer sufficient protection in those areas.
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Hey, thanks. Im somewhat a bit more clear now. It looks like im going to go with a mini gun. I just got off the phone from the guys at sprayworld.com They suggested a few guns, the debilbiss SRI, Astro mini, Shrape LVLP gun, Iwata mini, and the Sata, sata being the most expensive. The guy said he personally has the devilbiss sri.

I'll be shooting metallics bases, clears, and primers. from the guns i listed above, is it possibile to shoot all these paints from the same gun. I understand ideally, you want separate guns, but im trying to minimize on cost.

Good to hear that i could run lower lines of paint and still get that look. I mean, concept will cost $180 a gallon!
 
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JohnPSW

New member
plazaman said:
Hey, thanks. Im somewhat a bit more clear now. It looks like im going to go with a mini gun. I just got off the phone from the guys at sprayworld.com They suggested a few guns, the debilbiss SRI, Astro mini, Shrape LVLP gun, Iwata mini, and the Sata, sata being the most expensive. The guy said he personally has the devilbiss sri.

I'll be shooting metallics bases, clears, and primers. from the guns i listed above, is it possibile to shoot all these paints from the same gun. I understand ideally, you want separate guns, but im trying to minimize on cost.

Good to hear that i could run lower lines of paint and still get that look. I mean, concept will cost $180 a gallon!
Click to expand...

If I have the option, Sata or Iwata are my two top choices. If cost is an issue, DeVilbiss and Sharpe are not too big a step down. The Astro guns are *very* cheap, but they work well enough over the short term. If you aren't looking for durability and really want to save some cash, you could probably get away with an Astro.

All things considered, I think your leaning towards the DeVilbiss is a smart choice.

Using it for primer, base & clear? It certainly is not what you're going to see PPG (or any other paint company) recommend. Most likely, your mini will have a 1.0 tip. For automotive paints, you'll most often see a 1.3 or 1.4 tip recommended. They used to recommend bigger tips for primer, but that isn't so much the case any more. An automotive painter can easily use only 1.3 tips on all his/her guns these days.

What does that mean for you? Nothing. A mini with a 1.0 tip will do a fine job. I use a Sata Minijet 3 for everything - primer, base and clear. The key is to strip it down and clean it real well as soon as you're done shooting anything. The clear will especially gunk up the gun (it's very sticky).

Go ahead an invest $15 or $20 in a decent gun cleaning kit. You'll want some thinner or gun cleaning solvent. ... and you'll want an empty container for your waste solvent. Get an empty 5 gallon can & lid from your paint supplier. ... then you just have to figure out how to get rid of your waste solvent. I'm not sure what your options are there - I have no experience in that area. (Mine goes into a 55 gallon drum, which I then have a service come and pick up)

It will add an easy $100 to your gun investment, but if you buy the 3M PPS cup and disposable liner system, your cleanup will be a *lot* easier, and you'll use far less solvent. You'd need to buy the cups, liners and an adapter for your gun.


$180 per gallon for the paint? That's in line with what one can easily expect from automotive paint. It depends on the color too. You can have a black that's $40 per gallon, and a red in the same paint line will be $215. What color are you using? Is it a metallic? Is that color available in Emron? (and is the Emron line cheaper? - I think it is, but, I'm not familiar with the Concept line)

For your primer and clear, you definitely don't need to spend big money. They should have a primer that's somewhere are $75 per gallon (or less), with the hardener. Same with the clear. You can get some decent clears in the $75 or under range (for a gallon of clear and the hardener). There is no need to put a $200+ clear on cabinets.

Man... that's about everything I can think of to help you out so far. If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask. :luck:
 
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plazaman

New member
so your saying i can use 1 gun for everything base, clear , and primer as long as i flush it out real well, thats fine with me. and a 1.0 tip will handle all my bc,cc,and primer? no additional tips would be necessary? Could i purchase a 1.3 tip if i wanted to too? Im ruling astro out, i would like something that would last. With my current air supply, i should only be looking at mini guns?


The color for the bath vanity was chosen from a benny more paint chart, some how the guys at the paint store got it to match well. We had the vanity sprayed at a body shop. Will there be a problem shooting metallics with any of these guns? What ever the color is, im sure we'll be using metallics.

Data sheet for the paint.
http://www.pwpaints.com/images/downloads/dcc-p-168.pdf

I could have the waste dumped at a hazmat waste center.
 
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JohnPSW

New member
plazaman said:
so your saying i can use 1 gun for everything base, clear , and primer as long as i flush it out real well, thats fine with me. and a 1.0 tip will handle all my bc,cc,and primer? no additional tips would be necessary?
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Yes. It's doable. One of the reason for sticking with a recommended tip size would have to do with matching the existing paint on a car. Since that's not a factor here, you'll do fine.

Here's a quad I painted using just my one Sata Minijet 3 with a 1.0 tip. Did adhesion promoter, primer, sealer, basecoats, candy and clear all with this one gun.

http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c23/JPPics/Planet_Color_Quad/?action=view&current=P1060804.jpg

plazaman said:
Could i purchase a 1.3 tip if i wanted to too? Im ruling astro out, i would like something that would last.
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Looking at the DeVilbiss website, it appears the SRi Mini is available in a 0.8, 1.0 or 1.2 tip. If you can, I'd go with the 1.2 tip, but, I wouldn't worry about using the 1.0 either.

plazaman said:
With my current air supply, i should only be looking at mini guns?
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Yes. Unless you plan on investing in an 80 gallon or better compressor, I would suggest sticking with a mini gun. I'd rather use a mini that was getting good atomization than risk starving a full sized gun for air and dealing with poor atomization issues.


plazaman said:
The color for the bath vanity was chosen from a benny more paint chart, some how the guys at the paint store got it to match well. We had the vanity sprayed at a body shop. Will there be a problem shooting metallics with any of these guns? What ever the color is, im sure we'll be using metallics.
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Nope. You'll do fine.

plazaman said:
Data sheet for the paint.
http://www.pwpaints.com/images/downloads/dcc-p-168.pdf

I could have the waste dumped at a hazmat waste center.
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Excellent.

The data sheet is a bit confusing, as it clearly states this is a single stage product (which means the clear is mixed in with the base and you don't need to shoot a clear over it), but then the sheet gives recommendations for clearcoats.

Is this the same product used on the vanity? Did the shop shoot clear over the vanity?
 
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plazaman

New member
https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProdu...roductID=bc435720-c227-4bc3-917d-5ab5f079dc33

Its from the Deltron Line, Manual states i have 2 options for clearing, i could mix the clear with the last coat of base. Its the same exact product they used i have the can, just not sure on the process if they cleared with the base or separately.

Quad Looks Great!

What size air hose should i gun to these mini guns? I'll need a regulartor and some sort of filtering correct?

What size cup would i need for painting the doors?

Seems like the iwatta used the least amount of air
 
J

JohnPSW

New member
plazaman said:
https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProdu...roductID=bc435720-c227-4bc3-917d-5ab5f079dc33

Its from the Deltron Line, Manual states i have 2 options for clearing, i could mix the clear with the last coat of base. Its the same exact product they used i have the can, just not sure on the process if they cleared with the base or separately.
Click to expand...

Interesting. My best advice with whatever paint product you use is just read, understand and follow the data sheet. They put a lot of time and effort into coming up with that information.


plazaman said:
What size air hose should i gun to these mini guns? I'll need a regulartor and some sort of filtering correct?

What size cup would i need for painting the doors?

Seems like the iwatta used the least amount of air
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I just use a "standard" 3/8" air hose. A regulator is a must. Filtering isn't a must, but you'll probably want to use something to get the moisture out of the air. There are cheap inline options.

The size of the cup is some type of balance between having sufficient quantity to finish painting your piece without needing to refill, and not adding too much weight to the gun. Doing cabinet doors, it almost seems it wouldn't matter much. You're not having to move around any odd shapes.

The Iwatas do require less air than comparable guns. I like them for that reason. And they're very nice guns that spray very well.
 
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JohnPSW

New member
plazaman said:
For filtration : Im thinking http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AIR-...009QQitemZ190209474906QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Or

http://www.spraygunworld.com/Information2/AirFilters.htm Stage 4 or 5 ?


Trying to keep it under $130 - What do you think?
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I think, for what you're doing, just the inline stuff would be fine. Beyond that, I don't know much about specific filtration systems to comment. I pretty much sell one of two things - cheap inline filters, or a $2,000 system. Haven't really had anyone ask for anything in the middle.

I sell quite a few of the Motorguard disposables, like this one here...
http://www.arizonatools.com/tools/a...&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=productfeeds


plazaman said:
2) Any regulator will do at the gun or is their a specific i should look for?
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I would shy away from anything that's very cheap. I very much like the Iwata regulator. You turn the dial housing to adjust the air. That's very easy to grab, and it adjusts smoothly. The SATA $70<something> regulator has a small adjustment knob, and fine tuning is very touchy.


plazaman said:
3) What kind of fittings should i be using with the 3/8s hose?
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Nothing special needed here. Probably the most popular brand out there is Milton. They make everything.

Your hose is male on either end (no smart comments here!) :sillyme:
You need a male fitting to go into your compressor, then a female on the other end of the hose. Then your gun needs a male fitting to go into the hose. If I remember the numbers correctly, you'll need one each Milton 718, 732 & 733. ... try them on at the store to make sure.
 
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plazaman

New member
I checked my compressor hoses today, i have 3/8 ID hose with 1/4" ends. Will i be ok with the 1/4" end or should i look for a hose with 3/8" ends?

Typically, what size do these guns come with?

Is my layout correct, Compressor - Inline Filter - gun regulator - gun correct?

My compressor already has a regulator at the end, so i wouldnt need to add another correct, only at the gun?
 
J

JohnPSW

New member
plazaman said:
I checked my compressor hoses today, i have 3/8 ID hose with 1/4" ends. Will i be ok with the 1/4" end or should i look for a hose with 3/8" ends?

Typically, what size do these guns come with?

Is my layout correct, Compressor - Inline Filter - gun regulator - gun correct?

My compressor already has a regulator at the end, so i wouldnt need to add another correct, only at the gun?
Click to expand...

Yeah... I don't know how that works - 3/8" ID hose, 1/4" fittings... but, that's how it is. You'll most easily find fittings for that setup. You can get away with 1/4" fittings (Milton 727, 728, 715 - I think), but the 3/8" fittings I mentioned previously are preferred.

All the guns I have seen have a 1/4" female opening.

Yes, compressor - Inline Filter - Regulator - Gun is correct. You want to run your compressor wide open. Make any adjustments at the gun. The paint manufacturer may talk about the air setting it wants you to have "at the cap". It takes a bit of doing to measure that. Generally, you're going to set the air coming into your gun somewhere around 25-30 PSI. On an Iwata, it'd be more like 18-24 PSI.

What you want to do, is get everything set up - then have a piece of masking paper, or some other scrap you can shoot some paint onto. Shoot your pattern onto that paper and look at it. You want a nice oval shape, a bit pointed top and bottom, with a nice fine atomization pattern moving out evenly from all the edges - no big drops or splotches.

The gun manufacturers test their guns wide open, and they're designed to run best that way. You'll find a screw knob, straight back from the needle. If you screw it in further, it will set the gun so you cannot pull the trigger all the way back. Don't! You want the trigger all the way back for the best atomization. There will also be a knob of some type which will allow you to change from a full, wide pattern, to a smaller pattern. Again - leave that wide open.

You'll adjust the amount of material you're putting on by the distance you hold the gun from your work, and the speed of your passes. That you can only figure out by practicing. Work on some scrap pieces.

Start your first pass about 60% above the piece (so only the bottom 40% is hitting the work). Overlap your previous pass by 75%-80%. This will insure you get proper coverage without a blotchy or striped look. Your last pass, you'll again be hitting only the top 40% of the patter, with 60 % going beyond the edge of the piece.

When you're practicing, you'll figure out how to put on way to much material and get some good runs. Then you'll get gun shy and figure out how to put on too little material and get a dry spray. Then you'll find that sweet spot in between the two. :)
 
J

JohnPSW

New member
plazaman said:
Im looking into the gun regulators and see 2 differnt types

Diaphragm and a smaller regular one. Dont they do the same thing? I kinda like the smaller guage, but which one is prefered?

http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SHP1410W&Category_Code=4S1

http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DEVHAV501&Category_Code=1D



Any inline gun filters should be before or after the regulator?
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I don't think the regulator is an important part of the equation - it just needs to work. I think the biggest difference you would find among them is how easy or difficult it is to adjust to the exact pressure you're looking for.

I don't have personal experience with iether of those you've linked, but I think either would be fine.

My favorite is the Iwata LPR-643. It's less bulky because the dial is the adjustment knob as well.
http://www.coastairbrush.com/proddetail.asp?prod=8018


Yes... inline filter before the regulator.


On a different but related note... do you ever get the feeling this thread is all just you and me? :cheers:
 
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