Painting black

samdweezel05

New member
My next project is a real basic single color but it's going to be black. Doing a color change from a red/silver two tone. My question is, after the base color is sprayed, and even in between coats, what can I use to remove any dust or other things that might end up on the color before I spray the clear? In the past I have just used a light hand with a tac rag and have never had any issues with seing anything under the clear. Will I be able to do the same with black? I have waited 15 years to do a solid black paint job to make sure I had the skills to make the prep work perfect and I don't want to screw it up with scratches in the base that I will see after I clear it. Thanks

Phil
 

nzgrip

New member
The clear will fill any scratches on the basecoat. You could even sand the basecoat with 1000 grit to get rid of any dirt nibs and clear it, and the clear will hide the sanding marks.
 

Kong

New member
I think you may be a little too worried about it, but it never hurts to be careful. If needed a tack-rag is just fine though I generally prefer to just blow them off immediately before shooting the paint. As for sanding marks, there shouldn't be any - particularly from a guy with 15 years experience. As you imply, its all in the prep but after you shoot your sealer there shouldn't be any reason at all to pick up any sand paper until its time to cut and buff - unless the cap falls off your paint cup and half a quart of paint spills on your hood, of course. That said, if you really want it pretty go ahead and shoot your black, give it 3 coats of clear, wait two days, sand it flat (600~1000p), shoot two or three more coats of clear on it, reducing the last coat a bit if you like, wait a couple of more days and cut/buff it. Don't worry about a thing, it will be stunning.

On a more personal note, about half of the paint jobs I shoot begin life in black. Its really not a big deal. As you noted, all the "tricks" are in the prep work and in fact they aren't tricks at all. You've gone to a great deal of effort to get the parts straight and flat, then you used the appropriate abrasives to bring it around to smooth. You've obtained good tools to apply an even film of paint and you've picked compatible products which will flow to a perfect reflective surface. Your facilities are clean, well vented, and within the temperature bounds dictated by the paint manufacturer. You're going to finish the job with meticulous care from the last sanding (cutting with 2000p) to the swirl remover so any dust that might have found its way to the end will be removed and polished over. So what could go wrong? Seriously! You know what you're doing, you are gonna do it right, so it has to turn out great - no question about it. So get out there and shoot it! Oh, and of course you know, its impossible to take a good picture of a good black paint job - it just flat-assed can not be done; so make that your goal, the un-photographable paint job.
 
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samdweezel05

New member
I started painting about 15 years ago for myself. I have never done it as a full time job in a body shop. My 15 years of experience is far different than the 15 years of experience you get when you do it every day. I do it in the winter months here at work when we build tractor trailers and dump trucks. I started out just being the body work guy. I like to do it. I would get smart ass remarks because it "took too long" for me to get it ready for paint. I sure didn't get any smart assed comments after it was sprayed. I have always been flat out scared of black. I have seen the results of prep work that looked good in grey primer but not so hot after color and clear. I have never tried to clear twice. I may just give that a try this time. It sounds to me that you have more faith in me than I do. Now for another silly question. Is there more then one color black? Here at work we have always used "Ford Stripe Black". I know there are probabaly 200 different color codes for black but are they all the same color? For my own amusement i want to use a color code that came from a Chevrolet due to the fact that I am painting a Mustang. The irony of it will let this chevy guy sleep at night having a ford in the garage.
 

Kong

New member
All blacks are not created equal. I have read of a PPG black that some guys swore is the blackest of the blacks but I'm content with HOK BC-25.

Just to be sure, you are shooting an indicator coat over your high build and getting it flat before you shoot your sealer, aren't you? I ask because if you do that, and do it as often as needed to get it right, then you will be just fine with black or any other color over top of it. I prep all of my parts (bikes only) presuming they will eventually be shot in black and if the owner ends up wanting them refrigerator white I still have the pleasure of knowing they will stand up to any level of inspection. I'm a basic home painter myself, only doing the jobs I feel like doing when I feel like doing it. Generally I tell people it will take me about 3 weeks to do their tins, and I recommend that they just go on E-Bay and buy a spare set for me to work on. I tell them not to worry about deep scratches or a few minor dents - which really keeps the cost down. I will generally take most of the tins down to bare metal in at least a few spots (and more often the complete parts) anyway and its actually no more work for me to take out a small dent or two than I was going to do anyway. At any rate I'm in charge of the entire process from the ground up on jobs I do so they all get exactly the same treatment independent of what color they will be in the end. If its of any value to you the process I use is almost identical to the instructions for a perfect paint job on the SPI web page. Basically what they recommend is to give everything plenty of time, more than most guys allow, and its advice that hasn't failed me yet.

I wish you success, and yes, maybe I am a bit more optimistic than you, but it will prove to be well founded - just watch and see.
 

samdweezel05

New member
When you say indicator coat, do you mean to spray some color before it's sealed to see what it will look like? I have done that in the past with small projects and didn't realize it was common practice. On something the size of a car would I do that only in areas where I had to do any kind of body work or over the entire car? This car is very strait and clean. Only things i really have to do as far as body work is weld in a filler patch where I will be removing the antena from the passanger side fender and dolly out a small quarter sized dent in the driver side fender. I got lucky and all the large panels like the hood, roof, doors and rear quarters are strait.
 

Kong

New member
Well, sort of, but if I said yes I don't think we'd be talking about the same thing. Let me run through the early process real quick and get you to the point of indicator coat and maybe it will make more sense. Oh, and it doesn't matter that its a car rather than a bike, other than you've got acres to sand whereas I can knock off a set of tins in a couple of hours.

OK, first you've got clean metal with a well abraded surface. So if you've welded anything new in there or had any pounding to do with hammers its already done and ground down clean. On top of that you've got a couple of coats of epoxy that seal the metal off acting a water-impermeable barrier. On top of that you laid on any body filler you used and got it all sanded flat using blocks all the way. So at this point you know you have a dead flat surface, but it may not be smooth because of transitions between different materials and of course you've been working with relatively coarse abrasives. You then retouched the epoxy so there is full coverage and then you shot your high build primer, the stuff that requires sanding. Now you're at the point where what you are filling in are minute low areas and sanding scratches from earlier work. You've laid on about 3 coats of your high-build (2-K as its often called) with plenty of dry time between coats so there is a thick buildup of sandable paint to work with.

Here is where the indicator coat comes in. Let's say your high-build primer is light gray in color. Get yourself a spray can of the very cheapest black primer you can find - I mean the real garbage stuff - and stand back about 2 feet and mist a fine coat of that stuff all over your nice new High-build. Don't worry if there are blotches and do not try to actually cover your primer, just make sure its everywhere, just like the nastiest overspray you can immagine. Let it dry over night.

Come back the next day and using about 600p sand paper just sand every bit of that indicator coat off. Sand in long pushes, in one direction, and for goodness sakes pay attention to this one rule - quit sanding when its gone, but get every bit of it off. Got that - quit when you are done, not later. How many ways can I say this, just sand the misted coat off, but no more. What happens as you sand it off is you are sanding off the high spots in the paint first and as the surface gets flatter and smoother less and less of it persists - the moment it is all gone, that last swipe with the sandpaper, that is when you have perfection - and sanding you do after that point makes it worse.

All sanding must - must - must - be done with a block. A long block, a short block, a hard block, a soft block, everything you can find to use as a block, but never sand anything without a block.

And when that indicator coat is gone you are ready to seal the surface with a reduced coat (or two) of epoxy and then go straight to your finish paint job.

You get that indicator coat right and 'black' will pose no challenge for you every after. Oh, and I should tell you, its actually very easy sanding. You aren't taking off much material at all but you have to pay close attention all the time while you're doing it. Just quit when you're done, not later; that's all there really is to it.
 
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samdweezel05

New member
Believe it or not we are thinking the same thing. Just to make sure I understand, do I stop sanding after all the indicator coat is gone or should I sand a bit longer? Just a little tip for you, the indicator coat will come off much faster with a 36gr disk on a 7" grinder. Not so flat but much quicker.
 

Kong

New member
"the indicator coat will come off much faster with a 36gr disk on a 7" grinder." :haha:

True that!

Before the bulb lit up in my brain and I figured out what I was supposed to be doing I'd stand there and sand on a spot, and sand on it, and sand on it, and so on without much of a clue when it was time to stop other than I got tired of sanding in one place so I moved to the next. Then it occurred to me what I was really doing with the indicator coat and it was my "Eureka!" moment. I just go about life trying to explain it to as many people as I can to save the world a little sanding; doing my little part for humanity as you might call it:patriot:.
 

samdweezel05

New member
I have done it as well. I guess I thought 7 layers of body filler was better then just one. I have also learned that although hand sanding takes longer than using a DA, it really is quicker.
 

paxhc

New member
maybe its different from state to state? here in PA we call it Guide coat, and you can buy actual "guide coat" p9265.jpgfrom a local body shop supplier, even though the body shops i've been in use the cheapest flat black/satin black available

*** I forgot to add, they also make it in a powder form that you rub on
00004590.jpg
 
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Kong

New member
My butchering of the language could have a lot to do with it too. Actually around here (in my little "booth") 'we' us anything I've got left over if its in a contrasting color. I've almost always got some black left over and I just over reduce the living crap out of some of it if I don't have a rattle can of something laying around.
 
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