Primer Filler & Primer Sealer

[Noelbiker]

Ok Gentlemen Here we go again. I took back the sprayable poly and went to get primer surfacer.

So I tell the guy at the counter
about the site here and all the great help I'm getting

So I tell him I need a primer surfacer. Well th next thing I know I'm walking out with 90 Bucks worth of Dupont Product.

He said I should really use the 4007s filler
first and the the 4870s sealer next. Did I get robbed or do I really need these 2 products or did I get talked into somthing I don't need ?
Between the 2 products and the activators this stuff was expensive

I know in my previous post you guys were saying to use a good 2 part primer or a primer surfacer well somehow i ended up with 2 /2 part primer

. I realize that the filler will help with any minor imperfections but do I need to use sealer after the 2 part primer filler ? Was there a cheaper product I could of used that is just as good ?

. Well I know you guys will have plenty of good advice but please be clear and specific as I'm not up on all the nicknames of products, but thanks to this site I'm learning.

.I don't mind spending the money but not unnescessisarily.
<font size=5>Thanks

Noel </font>

 

[ezrider]

Noel, alot of painters might disagree, but if i dont sand threw the priner surfacer i dont use seater unless the base coat is transparent, i will use a sealer closest to the base about to be applied. again some body men disagree but i finish my body work off with 180 Grit, then prime and sand the primer with 400 grit wet. as far as the conversions of gun tips go i really cant give you an answer, may be sombody with the anewer your looking for will come across this post (Scott, Rex are you guys out there ). finally most primers and paints made today are designed for gravity feed guns (HVLP)if not more material ends up in the air than on the project.Sorry i couldnt answer all of your questions but i hope i have you going in the right direction.

 

[rex]

I do it a little different,since we all are different,but I don't disagree with Easyrider at all.Do make sure your primer surfacer will handle this though because some are touchy or aren't compatable.Even if it is a 2part primer,some have a minimal adhesion problem,but more often if you end up sanding off 2 coats and leave one for instance,the thickness of the one coat isn't enough to guarantee the base solvent won't eat through and soak up leaving a dull spot or even a blotch.PPGs 255 primer will do this and K36 can,but I've been away from DuPont for years. I take it you have a catalized surfacer and sealer-no prob.As long as you have 150-180 scratches to fill in bodywork or anything else you're fine.Put 3 coats of surfacer on and block or sand down.If you broke through to steel or bondo alot,I put 3 more on for the final 400-600 sand.I usually finish my bodywork and steel in 150-180 and prime.Then I block with 180-220 dry and reprime.I final sand that with 400-600 wet on a soft sponge block trying not to break thru the edges.Unless I'm doing alot of straightening,I just do the bodywork in their spot and don't surfacer the whole thing since I epoxy primed after stripping it.Then I do as above for the spots and final sand the epoxy with the final shot of surfacer on the bodywork.This is just my preference,everyone will tell you a different variation to get the same result within reason (not someone saying prime and block36 or 80 grit,cause it will probably show later).I've been away from Binks along time too so I don't know the setups anymore,but a 1.8 is a bit big for this stuff.If you reduce it to the max,put it on as thin as you can and still be wet and give it good flash time you should be fine for the primers.The 18 will probably serve you better for this stuff,the 7 is the hoser gun usually depending on their setup.For the spitting,a gravity feed does too when you go under something without having the ziplock liners.When I start a new coat I do the bottoms first if possible or just top off the cup when I start the next part.You actually have an advantage because you can spin the cup 180 to put the pickup tube in the rear of the cup.Just loosen the cup to gun nut,spin the whole cup assembly 180 and snug the nut.When you're done underneath,pop it loose,spin it back and go on with the sides and top.You won't use all the primer you got,so try to keep it.Clean out the groove on the qt cans so the top will seal good,but most important is the hardner.Usually it goes bad a week or so after you open it,but I have seen it go a month or so in humid FLA.Open it right before you pour it,wipe the threads and top edge of the can with a lintfree rag damp with thinner or reducer just to remove the hardner fron the steel or plastic and snug the top on immediately.Humidity in the air is the big killer of hardner-the less you let it suck up the longer it will last.Notice how clear the hardner is when you pour it.If it looks cloudy when you grab it after this job,it's junk.Sorry I rambled so long.

 

[ezrider]

That why custom paint jobs cost so much. A third up to a half of the total cost is just for material. No i don't think you got ripped off that is about right for quart set ups for primer and sealer

 

[Noelbiker]

Thanks Joe, Do I need to use the sealer over the filler ? And should I always use both or just if the surface needs to be filled and how much will the filler fill ? Like what grit scratches?

If it',s a good idea to always use the filler I will. Remember I'm just doing scooter parts. Also I have an older Binks model 7 primer gun with a 66 tip is this comparible to a 1.8 or how do I find out what the size correlations are. I've used it to shoot regular primer and it worked fine but i'd still like to know how to convert the tip sizes to mill.
I also think I should get a gravity feed gun as both of my guns are suction type ,modes 18 and 7 binks and I only need to shoot fenders and gas tanks. I usually need to mix more than I need so when I tip the gun the feeder tube will pick it up. Well any help would be greatly appreciated.
<font size=6>Thanks

Noel

 

[Noelbiker]

Sounds good but is primer filler the same as surfacer? Are these; the primer and the filler considered expoxy primers ?

Rex you said that you expoxy primered after stripping , should this be done before bondo and poly putty ? and then again after ?
I started with self etching primer then sanded ,
it went through in some places so I resprayed the s.e. primer now I plan on using the filler primer which is the darkest I can get and then I'll try without the sealer since the colorcoat is gm blackrose a dark purple black. I guess the uses of the word primer is confusing me as they seem to be used to describe primer sufacer,primer sealer,expoxy primer.

So I shoot the color coat or base coat right over the filler coat right? ( If I don't need the sealer.) I really hate to be so dense but I want to get it right. Well I hope I've got it right
I plan on shooting the filler tomorrow morning but I'll check here first just in case I have something wrong.

<font color=yellow><font size=6>Thanks Again

Noel

 

[shaunboy]

NOEL I WOULD HAVE JUST BROUGHT A GOOD PRIMER FILLER ONLY.THIS WILL FILL ALL AREAS THAT REQUIRE BLOCKING AND CAN BE COLOURED OVER TOO.
IN NEW ZEALAND WE USE PRIMER SURFACER USUALLY ON BRAND NEW PANELS AND IF YOU PREP IT RIGHT FIRST YOU CAN SPRAY RIGHT OVER THE SURFACER WITHOUT SANDING IT ,WE CALL THIS WET ON WET PAINTING.
IF THE PRIMER FILLER IS A GOOD BRAND LIKE PPG/DUPONT/SIKKENS ETC IT CAN BE THINNED DOWN TO PRODUCE A SURFACER FOR ANY RUB THROUGHS OF THE FILLER.
" THE WORD PRIMER MEANS THE SUBSTATE YOU HAVE TO APPLY ,TO BE COMPATABLE WITH THE TOP COATS."
I BELIEVE YOU DIDNT NEED TWO PRIMERS.
MAYBE THE GUY IN THE SHOP WAS FOLLOWING THE BOOKS TOO CLOSELY AND LACKED PRACTIBLE BODYSHOP EXPERIENCE.

 

[JAMMINJ]

EPOXY PRIMER/SEALERS ARE USED TO PROMOTE ADHESION, PREVENT COROSION ON BARE STEEL, AND SEAL FILLERS FROM STAINING. POLYURETHANE PRIMER/FILLERS ARE USED TO PROVIDE A HIGH FILM BUILD TO FILL AND PERFECT SURFACES. BOTH ALLOW PAINT TO BE APPLIED DIRECTLY TO THEM. THERE ARE A COUPLE PRODUCTS THAT DO BOTH JOBS. I USE HOUSE OF KOLOR EP-2 WHICH IS AN EPOXY PRIMER THAT HAS 70% SOLIDS WHICH ALSO MAKES IT HAVE GOOD FILLING CAPABILITIES. IT COMES IN CHROMATE OR NON CHROMATE FORM. CHROMATE IS USED TO ETCH STEEL AND PROVIDE CORROSION RESISTANCE. VALSPAR MAKES A SIMILAR PRODUCT CALLED VP-50 WHICH IS ALSO A HIGH BUILD EPOXY PRIMER. BINKS MODEL 7 WAS A TOP OF THE LINE SIPHON GUN WHICH SHOULD PROVIDE PLENTY OF ATOMIZATION. SIPHON FEEDERS USE A LARGER TIP THAN A GRAVITY FEED SO A 1.8MM TIP ON A SIPHON FEED IS ABOUT RIGHT FOR PRIMER APPLICATION. THE ADVANTAGE OF HVLP GRAVITY FEED IS LESS MATERIAL WASTE. SIPHON FEEDS LEAVE SOME MATERIAL UNUSED IN THE BOTTOM OF THE CUP WHERE A GRAVITY FEED USES ALL THE MATERIAL IN THE CUP. ALSO CONVENTIONAL GUNS OF YETERDAY HAVE FLUID TRANSFER RATE OF ABOUT 25% HVLP GUNS HAVE A TRANSFER RATE OF AT LEAST 65%, WHICH MEANS ALL OF THOSE EXPENSIVE MATERIALS GO ON THE SURFACE, NOT IN THE AIR. IF YOU ARE DOING ONE JOB STAY WITH THE BINKS, IF YOU ARE DOING SEVERAL JOBS YOU COULD JUSTIFY THE EXPENSE OF A HVLP BY FIGURING THE AMOUNT OF MATERIALS YOUR SAVING.

 

[JAMMINJ]

I JUST READ YOUR POST AGAIN ABOUT TIP SIZE CONVERSIONS. 0.066" IS 1.6764MM. JUST TAKE YOUR DECIMAL AND MULITPLY BY 25.4 TO CONVERT TO MM. 1" IS 25.4MM. 1.8MM TIP DEVIDED BY 25.4 EQUALS A 0.0709" TIP. HOPE THIS HELPS

 

[rex]

Noel,you're head must be spinning like Ezrider said.You were right on the epoxy primer,put it on your bare steel and do everything on top of it.You should put down a thin coat of etch primer first as you did,but you don't need to sand it-just let it flash the proper time and epoxy over it.I'm getting the idea now you have no bodywork,so the filler will be to fill in any scaping or sanding marks from stripping and if you block it it'll 'soften' or even remove waves and ripples in the steel.You're fine to do as you and Ezrider say as long as that filler/surfacer is compatible to be based over,which probably is.Usually there are a few surfacers from a line and it's not uncommon for one to be touchy about basing over directly.They all need to have a certain thickness after sanding to be based over which is usually 1.5-2 coats.I prefer to put 3,maybe 4 coats on to block,block till I just go through and hit the highs and reprime with 3 coats.By the time you sand this last coat for paint you'll have about that left.If you bust through an edge just piss a little more there and lightly scuff it enough to scratch it up but not break through again.To get the best results,thin the primer even if it's optional,put it on in an even wet coat (don't hose it on),and let it flash between coats until you can slide your hand over it without leaving drag marks.Then let it sit overnight even if they say you can sand it in 45 minutes or 2 hours.Here's a primer breakdown:etch primers promote adhesion and corrosion protection on bare steel and are applied thin-don't use over anything but bare steel.They need to be reprimed.Epoxy does the same but has solids in it.Anything basically will stick to it like bondo,putty,primers and paint so it's the recomended base for everything.It's filling ability is there,but it isn't as reliable as the surfacers.Most double as a sealer.Surfacers are to fill in sanding scratches in bodywork and metal and to fill in paint featheredges to level everything out.They won't relace putty for the deep nicks and scratches though.Some can be used as sealers also.Sealers are mainly to provide color holdout by providing a solid color to get quick hiding.Some colors are transparent but don't look it until you spray it.If you have the original paint and a few other colors of primers or whatever over a spot,it takes more base to hide it all and can look funny down the road,besides the fact you're getting thick with the material.They also provide adhesion between an existing substrate and the base if the base doesn't like to stick to it really well.JamminJ,I have to disaree with you on the #7.In my experience it was a courser gun than the DeVibiss MBC,and I couldn't dial the MBC in to my liking with the high solid stuff.Dialing down the volume wasn't a prob,it was getting enough atomization to break it up nicely.I spent a bit of $ on tips and aircaps.There were a few close combos but nothing that would equal my GFG.The JGA can be dialed in nicely though.These are a close comparison to the 7 (MBC) and 18 or BBR (JGA).Now I have seen small stuff like bikes done well if they were set up,but I find most of the time a coat is made to lay down so 2 coats are more like 3 or maybe even 4.The prob is a slick finish pushes the line between a nasty peel and a run,sag or solvent popping.It's not a fun line to walk unnecessarily,but it will work.

 

[ezrider]

Rex, that would of took me a month to type, but you hit the nail right on the head.

 

[Noelbiker]

Well guys thanks for all the great info! I think through all your continued efforts I've finally got the proper understanding of the lingo and uses of the different primers.

Well for anyone interested tody I shot the gas tank with the primer filler (surfacer) I used the binks #7 with the 66 tip. Like Rex said it came out very coarse. The surface feels like 180 grit sandpaper. It seems like it had heavy overspray or something? I had the gun pressure set at 30 lbs,at the gun, and the air adj. was at about 1/2 and the flow adj was turned out until I felt I had acheived a good pattern. Rex was also correct on the assumption there was little body work. I only had to use the filler on the tank and the fenders were ready for the basecoat. Besides that I wanted to see how the filler worked.

Well there was one little spot the size of a nickel that I had been fighting with ,it was a little indented, and I was hoping the filler would take care of it,it didn't. The spot is right on the roundest part of the tank . So if I can sand out the rough primer I'll try some evercoat easysand in a tube (poly filler)

that I bought today.
If all works out O.K. I'll thin the filler down to use as a surfacer and finish that tomorrow.
By the way how come no one warned me that strying to stir the filler in the can was like trying to mix clay and water in a thimble , it took me a half an hour to get this stuff mixed it was half solid and half liquid , the solid was sticking to the bottom and the sides of the can. Geez it was the hardest part of this whole project.
I also shot the fenders today with the colorcoat. I used the Binks #18 and they came out great!

Well next I'm on to the clearcoat before adding the flames. I read other posts and some say it is a good idea to shoot a clearcoat before adding the flames. Will this make a difference in the way the "depth" of the paint job is percieved ? Of course I want it to look a mile deep. I'll read back on the other posts about clear coating.
Once again I can't thank everyone enough I feel you guys did alot more for this paint job than I did, thats for sure !

Now I'll let ya in on a secret ,this project was a practice job. Everything that were doing on this bike were 2 steps behind on my girlfriends bike, the 67sporty. I cut and raked it to 38 degrees and we cleaned up the frame and all the welds . I also molded a little. She wants it shot in the Chroma illusion Purpleen (flip flop).
This stuff is 300 a pint , so I wanted to get everything on the practice bike worked out before I even thought about trying it. Thanks to you guys I think I'll be ready to try it when I'm done with this one.

<font color=yellow><font size=6>THANKS ALL

..NOEL

 

[ezrider]

Noel, by now you must be really confused. here in the USA primer surfacer and filling primer are 2 diffrent names for the same product. i personally put more than 3 coats of primer on. usally i spray 5 coats especally on bike parts becouse you will end up sanding 2-3 off any way, and i coat all of the parts so it is all a uniform surface if the part has been stripped to bare metal. call me foolish or wasteful but it works for me. the only reason i would use sealer is if it is a transparetn color so the base coat covers faster

 

[rex]

I think it took me at least 2 beers to type that,unfortunately I already had a few in me so the rambling started.Noel,I actually figured the #7 would plow it on with a heavy peel.If it's dry and grainy double check your reducer for the proper temp range.If it's good come in a little closer.8-10",or roughly between your thumb and pinky spread apart from each other is average.If you get too far back it will go on dry.Each pass should be wet like base or clear,but don't get closer than 6" or you can be forcing carrier solvents in the primer instead of them evaporating.It usually doesn't cause problems,but.Your pressure sounds about right,but I have gone below that if necessary.1/2 in on the fluid knob sounds a bit much too.I'd start about 3/4 open and tweak it along with the pressure to get a nice wet pattern.If you need to close the pattern some with the top screw just close off a touch of fluid and maybe lose a few lbs of air to compensate,and vice versa.