Questions on paint steps

J

jmh

Guest
Hi all,

Not a bike but I have gotten some good pointers from this site. I am painting my vette in bc/cc with pearl ghost flames. Well I got the bc and 1 coat of clear on it & was giving the clear a day to dry then was going to tape & spray the flames. During this wait period I was doing some engine work(fan relay) & my 2yo son was helping daddy, getting tools & that for me
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Next thing I knew he had taken a 3/4" wrench to the hood for some drawing pratice...Oh well things happen. I have now repaired the hood & sanded down the entire car with 1500. My question...Should I recoat with clear before doing the flames or can I just lay the flames down on the sanded clear then finish up with the rest of the clear? Thanks for your help.
PS great site
 

rex

New member
You might not like this.First what brand are you using?The big problem lies in the fact that if you're using a 2 or 3 coat clear you run the chance of the single coat of clear wrinkling anywhere you broke through or it is on the verge of it like a sanded edge.There's 2 things you can do here.I'm sure you broke through the clear on the hood so this is your testbed.First try to blend out that spot with base to cover the ring the clear created when you broke through to the base.Don't hose it on though because the more solvent you pile on it the more likely it will wrinkle,but I'm guessing a 90% chance it will anyway.If it doesn't wrinkle clear the hood and you'll know if that will cause a prob.Then you can clear the rest of the car if it works.If it does wrinkle,you're going to have to get a catalized primer to coat the area with to hold down the edge,and do the same as above.Letting it cure out a few days will help reduce wrinkling but the clear is way too thin unless the clear is deigned as a 1 coat clear.If it does go nuts(including the new clear attacking the sanded existing clear) you'll have to 600 all the clear off,rebase it and then clear it with the proper amount of coats.Throw us a little more info if you can.

Now for flaming it.I would suggest having the required # of coats of clear on it,800 it down and then flame and reclear it.The reason being is if you want to flame on the base it's over a day deal(8hrs).If you lay down the base color,let it dry,tape off the flames,color them then clear the car,you'll be burned out big time at the end and this time of year you have to consider the bug factor-especially in a poor and/or makeshift booth.On a bike it's not bad because things are small,but there's alot of area on a car to do in one day.If your flames are intricate you can spend 1/2 a day just laying and masking the flames.When you clear the flames lay an extra coat.Then 800 it again and try to get rid of the edge,but if you feel like you might break through just sand 3/4 of the edge out.Lay 2 more coats on,bust the edge down with 1000 and finish with 1500 or finer and buff.This depends on the clear you're using so get back with the brand.Sorry to ruin your day.
 

Wing master

New member
rex,
I am just starting my first flame job. It will be ghost flames . My question is do you put a coat of clear on before you lay out and paint the flames with pearl in the clear or do you spray the flames with the pearl and then clear coat the whole thing?
Thanks

Wing master
 
J

jmh

Guest
Hiya Rex,
Thanks for the reply. I'm using Dupont bc/cc ChromaSystem, the clear I used was ChromaClear 7500s. I have repaired the hood by sanding down to base coat an area about 3' x 4', feathered my sons drawing out & reshot the base in 3 passes each one a little larger than the last, I then re-cleared the entire hood with 1 wet coat and have resanded with 1500. No problems with the hood so far(fingers crossed). Hmmmm...maybe I just got lucky? Thats where I'm at now, hood is fixed and entire car has been wet sanded with 1500. Do you think I may get by if I lay the flames on now then re-clear? By the way I used about 40-42oz of clear for the one coat that I put on the vette. Here's a link to the technical data sheet for the ChromaClear: http://support.mazakcorp.com/jhunt/clear_tds.pdf
 

rex

New member
Cool,I don't believe you'll have any problems but if EZRIDER jumps in do what he says,he's had more experience with this stuff.The hood is where it should have went crazy so that's a great sign.I used the Chroma system for a few months when it was fairly new.Although I don't care for DuPont much I kindof liked it.The 7500 was my favorite but the 7800 was nice too.Come to think of it the 7600 was nice and quick for spot repairs but it was on the verge of running all the time because of my gun setup.I think the reason it worked for you is because the Chroma system allows you to rebase over fresh clear without it wrinkling so my idea is their reducers aren't very aggressive.It can be done with other systems but it's very tricky.Let 'er rip man
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WINGMASTER,you can do it either way.For smaller stuff I prefer to let the base color flash off good and go right over it before clearing.It keeps your thickness down and cuts out a sanding step.If it's a large object (car) I prefer to clear it first,then sand and continue-but,put the required # of coats on.There are 2 clears though,a base or intercoat clear that sprays and dries just like the base and your topcoat clear that gives the protection and gloss.I prefer to do pearl and candy work in base clear.It's much easier to work with and it's thinner than using top clear.You can also use the base clear straight to cover the base until you can get back to it but you have to scuff it and don't break through it.If you use the top clear it adds to the final thickness of course,but it has a tendancy to make the pearl or candy mottle and sometimes slide.You have to really pay attention applying it.What are you painting and what paint are you using?We can get more particular if I know.Oh,welcome to the site
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ezrider

New member
Rex, dont doubt your advice,you know the ins and outs.If i am going to clear before graphics i spray 2 - 3 coats of clear and sand it wet with 600 grit wet, wanna talk about flattining out clear, and you sand off half of the clear any way but it gives a nice flat base for graphics then do your art work then burry it with 4 coats of clear Flatten it out with 600 again reclear 3 coats more wet sand with 1500 and buff away. The finish will be as flat as glass and a mile deep with no tape edges.
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rex

New member
OOps,I meant to say you know more about the DuPont line.Come to think of it you've been doing this custom stuff alot longer than me.Every once in a while I have a brain fart and I can't even tell what I was talking about (I think that happens after that one too many beers,but I can't remember
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)
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M

Motornoggin

Guest
I do like the Dupont Chromasystems! I have made a few goofs like that myself and have been forgiven. Nice stuff for a beginner/hobbyist, very forgiving!
 

Wing master

New member
Rex,
Thanks for the help. I am painting an old pickup. I am using PPG's cheaper line Omni. I diddnt know it wasn't very good paint until after I already had it. (I read this on another post) Live and learn I guess. Any way I have sprayed the primer and hope to spray the base coat friday but dont want to screw it up. Would you suggest using base clear instead of top clear?
Thanks again for the help.

Wing master
 

rex

New member
I have no experience with the Omni but I do know a few who have used it.They all praise the clear so don't get down in the dumps about it.Did you prime it with a sealer or surfacing primer?Either way they will need sanding since they sat,so I'd 600 it.Ideally you should seal it before basing but 600 scratches will be covered fine (as long as it's not a really thin metallic).I don't know if Omni has a base clear but I suspect they should,that's really what you want your pearl mixed with too.In PPG's dbu or dbc line it's just the clear tint mixed equally with the binder that's also clear(but a little milky looking),so if they don't package it premixed they should be able to make it for you.It will have a little more gloss than the base when dry so don't worry.I suspect the base is like the rest,you have 24hrs at 70 degrees to put something on it before you have to sand and put another coat on before continuing.At 85 it cuts down to 12 hrs.If you think you can base it in the morning,lay out and spray the flames and topcoat clear it in one day,that's the way to go.You can do it but it'll be a looong day.Figure spending 3-6hrs just taping the flames.If you don't want to push it you can clear it either way.The intercoat will be cheaper and if you put it on at the end of the day and get taping early the next morning you can probably get away without sanding it as long as you stay in the recoat time.My buddy was just out your way and said it was quite cool at nites so this is to your advantage.Remember the 24hrs at70.Every 15 degrees above that cuts the time in half,so if you base clear it in the evening around 70 buy the time you get on it the next morning at 70 it actually dried less than that amount of time since it was cooler at night.If it was really cold stick your finger in the clear and push some on a place on a top surface(inconspicuous like the roof and use your skin,not nail).If it leaves a print it's too soft to tape yet.Don't worry if it prints because it'll flow out and dissappear.If it's just about dry and the print doesn't go away,nip over it with 1000-1500.Use a top surface though because that's where the paint's the thickest,and tape or paper isn't a good indicator.If it doesn't print start masking and get the flames on,then top clear it.If you're worried it will end up drying too long before you can get the flames on lightly scuff it with a wet grey 3M scothbrite.Of course you can still top clear the base and sand it but that will cost more probably.When you do clear the flames it's like EZ said,put on some extra.Since you're ghosting it should be a minimum edge,depending.If it's a 2 coat clear put 3 or 4,if it's a 3 coat put 5.When you get to the last coat of the recommended amount,add to your flash time before the others.If it's 15min between coats,I add 5min until the first extra coat goes on and check that one at 20 before the next.If you touch the paper or tape and it pulls strings wait.I like to wait until when the clear will print but if I lightly slide my hand or fingers over the clear it won't smudge.Don't wait too long though.Then walk away for a day and if you can stick it in the sun the next day it's even better.600 it down and throw on the recommended 2 or 3 coats again.If you're leary about taking all the tape edge out of the first clearing,you can leave a little and put an extra coat on in the final clear.Most of the edge will melt away but a quick blocking of 1200 and finish with 1500-2000 to buff will remove it.Since you're ghosting the tape edge shouldn't be bad unless you get over 3 coats of base-2 should do it though.Good luck and have fun.
 

Wing master

New member
Thanks rex,
They didnt have a base clear but after calling the factory rep he told them to mix it just like you said. It is supposed to be in the low 50's tonight so I should be ok to shoot the base tonight and start laying out flames tomorrow. I am a little unclear about sticking your finger in the clear and pushing it on the base. Do you mean like you are being fingerprinted? Also how much pearl would you suggest putting in the base clear? It will be a gold pearl going on over a copper colored metalic.
By the way have you ever been to the Sturgis rally? Just wondering I live about 120 miles from Sturgis.
 

rex

New member
Man,I'm sorry for not getting back.Friday nite got wasted working and I got caught in a monsoon Sat on the scooter.Got tired of waiting it out since I was close to home and went for it,big mistake.The engine cases were plowing water and I can't remember how many times I lifted my leg to drain the water from my crotch.I don't think my butt's as watertight as a frog's.When I walked in and hit the a/c that's all she wrote,I'm just now losing the fever.Anyway,the test is just like a fingerprint but you don't have to push down near as hard as the cops do.More like the amount of pressure you'd use to check if something is hot or cold.I rarely touch the base but since it'd be drying in cold weather the tape could give a false reading since it dries quicker.It should have been ready to go but that really cold weather can mess your dry times up for taping.If I can really press on the tape with no printing,trying it on the base will tell you if the tape is lying or it really is dry enough to not leave tape lines-just make sure your finger is completely clean and dry.For the clear always go for the tape,again on a top surface like the winshield or rear window since the tops are going to have the thickest amount of material.If they're dry the sides are.If you touch the tape and get strings between the tape and your finger as you pull your finger away it's not quite ready.In a few minutes when you test again you should leave a print but no clear comes with your finger.You can actually lightly slide your fingers across the clear and it wont smudge,but will if you put any pressure on it.That's the point I like to put another one on.The base is basically the same deal between coats but it wont always string.If it doesn't print with a normal light touch it's ready to go.

The pearl mix is hard for me to say because I just dump a little and mix,do a stick test and keep going until I get what I want.The stick test is nothing more than pull the stick and look at it,I usually dip it in and pull it out a few times.Then add a little more pearl if needed (or clear if I screw up).What you see on the stick is probably about 5 or 6 coats after it's been reduced and sprayed.I want to say about 10% pearl to clear by volume is about right for ghosting in 2 coats,but I'm not sure.I guess I need to pay attention next time to get a rule of thumb.

I haven't made it to Sturgis yet but will after the kids are gone in 5 years.Hopefully by then the doctors will have a better handle on what's wrong with the wife and long trips won't be such a problem.If she goes I'll have to trailer up though,the 3 hrs to Daytona gets to her and she sure wont follow in the truck that far.I'll let you know when I come though.150 miles' nothing compared to the ride there.Please say I didn't screw you up disappearing.Take care and let us know how she came out.
 

Wing master

New member
Rex,
Thanks for the advice.
I didnt hear back so I went for it. It turned out pretty good. I only wish I would have done about twice as many flames. It took about 6 hours to mask off the flames as it was so I probably couldnt have done more anyway. When it is all back together I will post some pics. The only problem I had was some orange peel. I think this was because of bad lighting. But overall I am happy with it.
I hope your wife is allright. And if you ever get to Sturgis let me know and I can tell you some good places to go.
Thanks again for the help and the pics are on the way.
 

rex

New member
Great,I'm glad you didn't have any probs.Don't worry about a little peel,you can reclear or buff it.The best get it too sometimes.Takes a while masking,eh?
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It gets quicker with time but it still takes awhile.Thanx for caring for the ol' lady.She'll be fine.She gets run down quick with exertion or long days.It's like Lupus but they say that's not it.?.Definately post some pix man,take care.
 
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