T
trans damm
Guest
i just bought a airbrush but realized its useless because i dont have a backround to start with. i want to learn how to paint. what are the steps required to get a finish like a new car? thanks in advance
B
Big Chicken
Guest
Get a job at a body shop, give it a couple years, and then give it a shot. Urethanes are not user friendly, they are a science that takes time and patience to get it down, and produce a nice product. This web site offers a helping hand, but hands on is the way. practice with the airbrush on some t-shirts and get real friendly with an exacto knife.
M
Mac_Muz
Guest
I am so new my paint ain't even dry yet!
First off this site is for helping you so far as I can tell...
You bought a tool, one of many probably to come.
I wanted to paint my 21 year old bike, as it was original paint for all that time..
So like youy I found this place, and got help.
Now anything I say is SUBJECT to being very wrong, but read a lot here and get really familiar with this site. Then you can ask better questions.
Some of what I have learned here is, get a project, then get the right stuff... I didn't and it cost me... But then i choose to ignor guys that have 20+ years under their belts at first.
I can prove that spend 10 minutes here
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/mac_muz15/lst?.dir=/Tank+Paint&.view=t
You can see the time and money wasted. I was tryin to save a few bucks with rattle cans, and rattle cans just won't cut it! period!
So what I see as your problem is going to be getting bucks enuff to get a compressor and bigger guns.
The air brush is a tad small for painting bigger things like say bike tanks, and the air brush is better suited to smaller designs on those items after they are painted.
So you gotta figure out what you want to do... But getting a great based out tank near to done so you can blast it with a air brush might be really hard to do.
So begin to dig deep if your serious, and get a compressor, lines filters water trap and a place to paint set up. Maybe your part way there, and maybe you have a place to paint. I cantell you for sure having 2 cats and painting in a shower is wicked tuff, but that where I did this project. My very first by the way, and not yet done, but almost.
I learned that to get paint off a liquide stripper works best to get to bare steel. Sanding is tediouse and dusty.
I learned there is better than bondo for against steel fillers. I thought that using cheap bondo there was a trick to sanding,and that I would never get it!
I found a product that cost more than bondo, but the edge feathers rather than breaks, so Ibecame expert at feathering oven night. That stuff is chromalite i think...
So now yer stripped, and faired out.... Oh ruff up the fill area first with 80 grit, and sand the whole with 400 once your fair.
Then shoot primer for 3 good coats and sand it with 400 grit.
If then you have flaws shoot primer again for 3 coats and sand again. That should fill up most flaws.
Time and you better have some now... for shooting base coats as these seem to need a time factor of a certain time to shoot again. The Dupont enamel I used was 30 min, and it had to be shot at 75'F , or near that temp. So a tack coat, and then in 15 min a full wet coat, but dry enough for NO runs! After that 30 min wait and a 2nd coat... 30 more min, and the last wet coat!
24 hours later I set about doing a pearl mid coat So I sanded with 400 wet, and did those 3 coats starting with a tack coat which you don't count.
That tack coat is a wicked light coat, and seems to get some color on, but not that much as in like a full cover... You can see thru it easy, and you don't like seeing it, but you realy need to.
What I think happens, and like I say I can be way wrong, either that or I am a know it all after 1 time.... Is the tack coat gets hit by a wet coat, and that wet coat melts into the tack coat, and releases the color more, but with out runs, and somehow sets up a way for the chemicals to dry faster, which means less runs, and a more even coat.
So now you have you base and mid coats done, and dry.
Time to sand again. I use 400 wet, and shot clear. Now I find the clear I used was thick like primer, but clear.... So you can build with it, and you can let it set up good and dry and sand it.
I was bummin out at the sight of that. I thought Oh No! Now look at this mess, but it looked good again after sanding and tacking and shooting again....
Now this seems to me where you would start with a air brush.
I bought a touch up gun, that holds about 8 oz of paint, but for a bike tank I found about 5 oz was right for tank and 2 side covers. I don;t think you air brush can hold that much, can it?
Now my project was not all that simple, and I have been at it hard for some time now.
I have had every thing go wrong, and it looked about like I threw a cat at it for a time, and then had a reptilian hatch to boot!
Also having about 8 colors didn't help much for speeding things up. So you can pretty much guess I have a few more coats of these colors than any 1 or 2 color time in this project.
With out my wife to help, and this site with guys that know there stuff, and willing to help a fool, I would have ended up with a nice Flat black and a band-aid on my bike! In big yellow hand drawn letter would have been the word "OUCH", and no one but no one would have ever said anything more that "Nice Rat Bike"
Sorry this is so long, but then you asked...
And just maybe a guy that knows a hell of a lot more than me will jump in and slap my wrist where I deserve it, and say if I am on track where I am on track....
Last good luck....... Mac
And those who helped me and they know who they are T and R........ thank you....
First off this site is for helping you so far as I can tell...
You bought a tool, one of many probably to come.
I wanted to paint my 21 year old bike, as it was original paint for all that time..
So like youy I found this place, and got help.
Now anything I say is SUBJECT to being very wrong, but read a lot here and get really familiar with this site. Then you can ask better questions.
Some of what I have learned here is, get a project, then get the right stuff... I didn't and it cost me... But then i choose to ignor guys that have 20+ years under their belts at first.
I can prove that spend 10 minutes here
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/mac_muz15/lst?.dir=/Tank+Paint&.view=t
You can see the time and money wasted. I was tryin to save a few bucks with rattle cans, and rattle cans just won't cut it! period!
So what I see as your problem is going to be getting bucks enuff to get a compressor and bigger guns.
The air brush is a tad small for painting bigger things like say bike tanks, and the air brush is better suited to smaller designs on those items after they are painted.
So you gotta figure out what you want to do... But getting a great based out tank near to done so you can blast it with a air brush might be really hard to do.
So begin to dig deep if your serious, and get a compressor, lines filters water trap and a place to paint set up. Maybe your part way there, and maybe you have a place to paint. I cantell you for sure having 2 cats and painting in a shower is wicked tuff, but that where I did this project. My very first by the way, and not yet done, but almost.
I learned that to get paint off a liquide stripper works best to get to bare steel. Sanding is tediouse and dusty.
I learned there is better than bondo for against steel fillers. I thought that using cheap bondo there was a trick to sanding,and that I would never get it!
I found a product that cost more than bondo, but the edge feathers rather than breaks, so Ibecame expert at feathering oven night. That stuff is chromalite i think...
So now yer stripped, and faired out.... Oh ruff up the fill area first with 80 grit, and sand the whole with 400 once your fair.
Then shoot primer for 3 good coats and sand it with 400 grit.
If then you have flaws shoot primer again for 3 coats and sand again. That should fill up most flaws.
Time and you better have some now... for shooting base coats as these seem to need a time factor of a certain time to shoot again. The Dupont enamel I used was 30 min, and it had to be shot at 75'F , or near that temp. So a tack coat, and then in 15 min a full wet coat, but dry enough for NO runs! After that 30 min wait and a 2nd coat... 30 more min, and the last wet coat!
24 hours later I set about doing a pearl mid coat So I sanded with 400 wet, and did those 3 coats starting with a tack coat which you don't count.
That tack coat is a wicked light coat, and seems to get some color on, but not that much as in like a full cover... You can see thru it easy, and you don't like seeing it, but you realy need to.
What I think happens, and like I say I can be way wrong, either that or I am a know it all after 1 time.... Is the tack coat gets hit by a wet coat, and that wet coat melts into the tack coat, and releases the color more, but with out runs, and somehow sets up a way for the chemicals to dry faster, which means less runs, and a more even coat.
So now you have you base and mid coats done, and dry.
Time to sand again. I use 400 wet, and shot clear. Now I find the clear I used was thick like primer, but clear.... So you can build with it, and you can let it set up good and dry and sand it.
I was bummin out at the sight of that. I thought Oh No! Now look at this mess, but it looked good again after sanding and tacking and shooting again....
Now this seems to me where you would start with a air brush.
I bought a touch up gun, that holds about 8 oz of paint, but for a bike tank I found about 5 oz was right for tank and 2 side covers. I don;t think you air brush can hold that much, can it?
Now my project was not all that simple, and I have been at it hard for some time now.
I have had every thing go wrong, and it looked about like I threw a cat at it for a time, and then had a reptilian hatch to boot!
Also having about 8 colors didn't help much for speeding things up. So you can pretty much guess I have a few more coats of these colors than any 1 or 2 color time in this project.
With out my wife to help, and this site with guys that know there stuff, and willing to help a fool, I would have ended up with a nice Flat black and a band-aid on my bike! In big yellow hand drawn letter would have been the word "OUCH", and no one but no one would have ever said anything more that "Nice Rat Bike"
Sorry this is so long, but then you asked...
And just maybe a guy that knows a hell of a lot more than me will jump in and slap my wrist where I deserve it, and say if I am on track where I am on track....
Last good luck....... Mac
And those who helped me and they know who they are T and R........ thank you....
T
trans damm
Guest
woah thanks for all the help!!! now what kind of paint should i use? iam basically starting off with real small pieces so iam going to try to use my airbrush for alittle. my next question is: do i actually sand the base coat at all? thanks again John
M
Mac_Muz
Guest
Like I said I have done exactly 1 paint job! And it is not done.
Some things I have learned along the way are:
You can paint enamel on laquer But not the other way around!
Rattle cans are not always enamel even if they say so on the can.
Some rattle cans are not marked at all as to what type of paint is inside.
Primer is sandable.
Base coat is sandable
metalics and pearl mid coats are not sandable, as it messes up the particals in the way they lie.
Shooting metalics dry can make them sparkel more.
Shooting ,,, I forget the term... a really light coat first helps the first real coat melt, and adds pigment to the first real coat, and some how speeds drying time. Ah yes tack coat. Thats my story and I am stickin to it!
I have no idea what paint you should use. That depends on what your painting doesn't it?
I tried a number of rattle cans before giving up on them for the most part.
it seems best to get all the colors in a system from the same maker, rather than mixing and matching.
it seems you can get about any color made up...
I did use testors model red and blue on that tank and buried it in clear from Dupont... Select-Clear, so who knows what will happen as the tesors won't dry well under that... Maybe there is a saving grace for me.... the blue was done for 2 weeks or so.... I seemed dry, but technicly it was not dry. The red seemed dry as well, but then who knows...I am not a chemist either...
If you choose to stick with this you will become a chemist of sorts.
If you turn anything into GOLD remember who got you a bitO' help eh? ;-) Mac
Some things I have learned along the way are:
You can paint enamel on laquer But not the other way around!
Rattle cans are not always enamel even if they say so on the can.
Some rattle cans are not marked at all as to what type of paint is inside.
Primer is sandable.
Base coat is sandable
metalics and pearl mid coats are not sandable, as it messes up the particals in the way they lie.
Shooting metalics dry can make them sparkel more.
Shooting ,,, I forget the term... a really light coat first helps the first real coat melt, and adds pigment to the first real coat, and some how speeds drying time. Ah yes tack coat. Thats my story and I am stickin to it!
I have no idea what paint you should use. That depends on what your painting doesn't it?
I tried a number of rattle cans before giving up on them for the most part.
it seems best to get all the colors in a system from the same maker, rather than mixing and matching.
it seems you can get about any color made up...
I did use testors model red and blue on that tank and buried it in clear from Dupont... Select-Clear, so who knows what will happen as the tesors won't dry well under that... Maybe there is a saving grace for me.... the blue was done for 2 weeks or so.... I seemed dry, but technicly it was not dry. The red seemed dry as well, but then who knows...I am not a chemist either...
If you choose to stick with this you will become a chemist of sorts.
If you turn anything into GOLD remember who got you a bitO' help eh? ;-) Mac
T
trans damm
Guest
thanks again. whats the difference between a wet coat and a dry coat?
M
Mac_Muz
Guest
Tack coat.... not dry coat... I should not speak to you that way as I have no bee's wax doing so, but for real painters to know what you mean try to learn the lingo they use....
A tack coat is a light coat that does not cover well, and has the look of a orange skin.
You won't like it and will want to blast on a wet coat to satisfy the urge to do so. It is hard not to want to, but don't do it!
Each type of paint foor automotive use has a "FLASH TIME" on the can, and after you read that info, you will know when the time is ready for a real first wet coat.
That time seems to varry with the manufactor, and type of paint.
I think the one thing in common with most paints is that the tack coat begins to dry, and release gases in the form of driers, and the pigment stays.
What I do not clearly understand yet is the next coat speeds up some how by having the extra pigment melt in with the tack coat. The thinners which seem to be atleast part of the solvents and driers want to exit the paint faster.
Somehow there seems to be a gas out chemicly that does not take place with a first wet coat, and no tack coat.
The extra drying speed helps to prevent runs, and you already know you don't want runs....
I hope someone with more than a single coached paint job jumps in, as I am no pro for sure... Mac
A tack coat is a light coat that does not cover well, and has the look of a orange skin.
You won't like it and will want to blast on a wet coat to satisfy the urge to do so. It is hard not to want to, but don't do it!
Each type of paint foor automotive use has a "FLASH TIME" on the can, and after you read that info, you will know when the time is ready for a real first wet coat.
That time seems to varry with the manufactor, and type of paint.
I think the one thing in common with most paints is that the tack coat begins to dry, and release gases in the form of driers, and the pigment stays.
What I do not clearly understand yet is the next coat speeds up some how by having the extra pigment melt in with the tack coat. The thinners which seem to be atleast part of the solvents and driers want to exit the paint faster.
Somehow there seems to be a gas out chemicly that does not take place with a first wet coat, and no tack coat.
The extra drying speed helps to prevent runs, and you already know you don't want runs....
I hope someone with more than a single coached paint job jumps in, as I am no pro for sure... Mac
T
txturbo
Guest
The first coat is one of the "secrets" to getting a nice finish without runs or sags. If you put the first coat on light, you can put the 2nd coat on heavier because the paint from the first coat will absorb the reducer from the second coat and keep it from running or sagging. On the 3rd coat you can really lay it on without running or sagging because the other 2 coats will more quickly absorb the reducer. This really comes in handy on single stage paint systems where you need to put it on heavy to obtain the glossiest finish possible. On 2 stage systems its not for the gloss, because the clear gives that ,but for coverage. Especially when changing colors or using colors that don't cover well, like green or yellow. Of course this is just my experience, and I don't claim to be a professional or expert painter. Results may vary. Use at own risk. Always wear eye and breathing protection. Allow 6-8 weeks for delivery. No warranty expressed or implied.
S
shaunboy
Guest
WHEN YOU SAY AIRBRUSH DO YOU MEAN LIKE AN ARTISTS OR A ACTUAL SPRAY GUN FOR APPLYING AUTOMOTIVE PAINT?
IF YOU HAVE AN AIR BRUSH ALL YOU CAN DO IS SMALL
PANELS IN BASECOAT.
2PACK COLOUR OR CLEARS WILL HAVE TO BE SPRAYED WITH A PROPER GUN.
ALL BASE COAT MUST BE COVERED WITH CLEAR .
THE 2PACK SYSTEM IS THE TRICKIEST TO APPLY BECAUSE IT WEIGHS MORE AND WILL RUN EASIER.
IF JUST PAINTING FOR FUN AT HOME ,MAKE SURE YOU BUY FAST THINNERS AND HARDENERS TO LEARN WITH.
ALL THIS IS VERY EXPENSIVE SO I WOULD PRACTICE
WITH ACRLYIC LACQUERS AND AIR DRY ENAMELS FIRST.
ALWAYS WEAR A RESPIRATOR BECAUSE ANY FUMES YOU BREATH GO THROUGH YOUR ENTIRE BODY.
LACQUER IS GOOD FOR PRACTICING BASECOAT METALLICS AND 1K ENAMEL IS GOOD FOR PRACTISING 2PACK COLOUR OR CLEAR.
IF THE PANEL YOU PAINT FEELS COLD TO TOUCH TRY AND WARM IT TO 18-25'C
REMEMBER THE MORE SPARKLY THE PAINT IS THE LIGHTER YOU SHOOULD APPLY IT.
THE FINISH IS FROM THE CLEARCOAT NOT SO MUCH THE METALLIC BASECOAT.
ALWAYS FOLLOW THE RECOMMENDED TIME TO WAIT BETWEEN THE BASECOAT AND THE CLEAR OR ELSE THE CLEAR WILL MELT INTO THE BASE AND MOTTLE IT OR GIVE IT A STRIPY UGLY LOOK
IF YOU HAVE AN AIR BRUSH ALL YOU CAN DO IS SMALL
PANELS IN BASECOAT.
2PACK COLOUR OR CLEARS WILL HAVE TO BE SPRAYED WITH A PROPER GUN.
ALL BASE COAT MUST BE COVERED WITH CLEAR .
THE 2PACK SYSTEM IS THE TRICKIEST TO APPLY BECAUSE IT WEIGHS MORE AND WILL RUN EASIER.
IF JUST PAINTING FOR FUN AT HOME ,MAKE SURE YOU BUY FAST THINNERS AND HARDENERS TO LEARN WITH.
ALL THIS IS VERY EXPENSIVE SO I WOULD PRACTICE
WITH ACRLYIC LACQUERS AND AIR DRY ENAMELS FIRST.
ALWAYS WEAR A RESPIRATOR BECAUSE ANY FUMES YOU BREATH GO THROUGH YOUR ENTIRE BODY.
LACQUER IS GOOD FOR PRACTICING BASECOAT METALLICS AND 1K ENAMEL IS GOOD FOR PRACTISING 2PACK COLOUR OR CLEAR.
IF THE PANEL YOU PAINT FEELS COLD TO TOUCH TRY AND WARM IT TO 18-25'C
REMEMBER THE MORE SPARKLY THE PAINT IS THE LIGHTER YOU SHOOULD APPLY IT.
THE FINISH IS FROM THE CLEARCOAT NOT SO MUCH THE METALLIC BASECOAT.
ALWAYS FOLLOW THE RECOMMENDED TIME TO WAIT BETWEEN THE BASECOAT AND THE CLEAR OR ELSE THE CLEAR WILL MELT INTO THE BASE AND MOTTLE IT OR GIVE IT A STRIPY UGLY LOOK
M
Mac_Muz
Guest
to me I think there are 3 tools in the way of spray guns. I own 2 types.
I have 2 1 qt. guns, and a touch up gun that can hold 8 oz.
I do not have and never even held in my hand any air brush, so I don't know what they can hold.
If my guess is right maybe 1 or 2 oz. of paint. I find for a bike tank about 5 oz. will get 1 coat +/-
to do part of a tank less.... and to do 1 coat of paint on side covers and the tank about 6 oz.
It seems alot of that never hits the tank and ends up all over the place as dust..... Mac
I have 2 1 qt. guns, and a touch up gun that can hold 8 oz.
I do not have and never even held in my hand any air brush, so I don't know what they can hold.
If my guess is right maybe 1 or 2 oz. of paint. I find for a bike tank about 5 oz. will get 1 coat +/-
to do part of a tank less.... and to do 1 coat of paint on side covers and the tank about 6 oz.
It seems alot of that never hits the tank and ends up all over the place as dust..... Mac
Trans,the airbrush is handy,but it's only good for small stuff.Painting a 1/24 scale model is big.If you're artistic it's invaluable,but it has it's uses for shaddowing and highlighting on the bigger stuff where the detail guns are a touch too coarse.If you want to paint anything the size of a bike fender or larger,you need a real gun.Touch up (or detail) guns are only good for touching up small areas and it's usually grabbed because a normal gun is too large to maneuver around.You can sand base,but.No matter what it needs another coat.If it's metallic or pearl,a heavy sanding could require a few.The only reason I have to sand the base is for a dirtnib or the base dried too long to be recoated.DON'T touch a candy base,I've yet to see it disappear.
Oh,Mac.Chromalite is bondo in the generic meaning,it's just a more refined and updated variety(and made by a different company).I think we use a plastic at work made by Bondo,but it's a good grade.Not what I like but I'm not buying it.I prefer to use mud as a general term so it's not confused with the brand Bondo.
Oh,Mac.Chromalite is bondo in the generic meaning,it's just a more refined and updated variety(and made by a different company).I think we use a plastic at work made by Bondo,but it's a good grade.Not what I like but I'm not buying it.I prefer to use mud as a general term so it's not confused with the brand Bondo.
T
trans damm
Guest
thanks for all the help so far, iam starting to learn. now i have a few more questions. Can i buy a paint gun that sprays base and clear or do i need 2 different guns? where can i get the best price on a gun? the pieces iam painting are auto interior plastic trim. what kind of paint would be the best to start off with? i guess i need a 2 stage cause i want that really wet deep gloss. are there any website that sell clear online? my last question is a just bought a 4hp 15 gallon compressor. will that be strong enough to run a paint gun? i sure hope so cause i guess its too late now lol. thanks again for all the help so far.
T
TAZ
Guest
-You can use one for both (base and clear) for costs sake.
I personally use two guns for bigger jobs like over alls on cars.
I use a GEO and a JGA.
-If you are just painting interior pieces, a "jam gun" will work fine, or you can buy a siphon feed gun like the JGA.
-I just buy my guns from our local auto paint supply store that I deal with (Auto Body Express)
-I once looked for PPG clear online, but only found distributors that sell it to paint supply stores
-Your compressor should be fine for smaller jobs.
I personally use two guns for bigger jobs like over alls on cars.
I use a GEO and a JGA.
-If you are just painting interior pieces, a "jam gun" will work fine, or you can buy a siphon feed gun like the JGA.
-I just buy my guns from our local auto paint supply store that I deal with (Auto Body Express)
-I once looked for PPG clear online, but only found distributors that sell it to paint supply stores
-Your compressor should be fine for smaller jobs.
T
trans damm
Guest
what is the best name "jam gun" should i buy? if a crafstman one from sears any good? or can a just buy a cheap 29.99 one from ebay. what would be the downfalls of buying a cheap gun form ebay? thanks again. BTW nice car scott. i have a 2002 WS-6
I think your talking about touch up guns? if you are the prices are about$100 - $150 for a decent one that should last a bit. as far as name goes there are so many ask what is advalable at your local paint supply store or start surfing the net and see what you can find. i bought mine from Advanced auto and it cost a little under $100 . i have been using it for about a year now and no problems yet. sorry i cant remeber the brand nane, but i think all the stores carry them.
The cheap guns will usually last quite a few jobs if set up right,but they are throw away.For detail guns,I don't like the Binks syphon feed style at all.I bought a copy of a DeVilbiss gravity feed for $100(because it said Mac Tools on it) and works well,but I wouldn't buy another.If I were serious about it I'd look toward the top end like Sata but they are expensive.If you're doing interior panels,use a low gloss clear or you'll get all kinds of distracting reflections.
S
shaunboy
Guest
WHEN PAINTIN ANY PLASTIC MAKE SURE IT IS ETCHED WITH A PLASTIC PRIMER FIRST.THIS IS A MUST ESPECIALLY FOR NEW PLASTIC PARTS.